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	<title>Comments on: Arizona Neighbor On My Mind</title>
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	<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/</link>
	<description>Concordia Theology</description>
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		<title>By: Leopoldo Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-7088</link>
		<dc:creator>Leopoldo Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2013 04:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-7088</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is now official! This recommendation of the BRTFHM has come to fruition. The CTCR has published the report &quot;Immigrants Among Us&quot; in English and Spanish, which as the subtitle puts it, presents a Lutheran Framework for Discussing Immigration Issues. Congratulations to the CTCR!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is now official! This recommendation of the BRTFHM has come to fruition. The CTCR has published the report &#8220;Immigrants Among Us&#8221; in English and Spanish, which as the subtitle puts it, presents a Lutheran Framework for Discussing Immigration Issues. Congratulations to the CTCR!</p>
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		<title>By: Leopoldo Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-7087</link>
		<dc:creator>Leopoldo Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2013 04:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-7087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Lee for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate your struggle with the complexity of the issue. You want to speak to the need for border enforcement while showing an appreciation for meeting labor demands in the U.S. Peace. Leo Sanchez]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Lee for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate your struggle with the complexity of the issue. You want to speak to the need for border enforcement while showing an appreciation for meeting labor demands in the U.S. Peace. Leo Sanchez</p>
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		<title>By: Leopoldo Sanchez</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-7085</link>
		<dc:creator>Leopoldo Sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2013 04:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-7085</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for these comments, Paul. You will be happy to know that the latest CTCR document &quot;Immigrants Among Us&quot; does have a list of guidelines that follow quite a bit of your hunches. I think you will find those helpful. The CTCR document, approved Nov. 2012, is now available online. Peace. Leo]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for these comments, Paul. You will be happy to know that the latest CTCR document &#8220;Immigrants Among Us&#8221; does have a list of guidelines that follow quite a bit of your hunches. I think you will find those helpful. The CTCR document, approved Nov. 2012, is now available online. Peace. Leo</p>
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		<title>By: Keeping Synod Task Force on Hispanic Ministry Honest &#124; Center for Hispanic Studies</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-6920</link>
		<dc:creator>Keeping Synod Task Force on Hispanic Ministry Honest &#124; Center for Hispanic Studies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-6920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] a copy of the BRTFHM report (in English), click here. For an interesting discussion on immigration, click here.   This entry was posted in Blog by bauerm. Bookmark the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a copy of the BRTFHM report (in English), click here. For an interesting discussion on immigration, click here.   This entry was posted in Blog by bauerm. Bookmark the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-1050</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jan 2011 01:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-1050</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know this comment comes long are you post, but I just now ran across it and I wish to bring up a couple of points. 

I worked in law enforcement for DPS, on the border, for seven years before going to seminary.  I also am a third generation Arizonan and grew up in Yuma.  The anarchy of our southern border is indeed a severe threat to those on both sides.  My problem is with SB1070, however, is three fold: 

1. I can tell you by absolute experience that law enforcement does not have the manpower to enforce these laws as written.  With DPS, when I would run across an undocumented immigrant, Border Patrol was often an hour away or more.  If local law enforcement now has to arrest and detail every undocumented immigrant, then be prepared to fund many more law enforcement officers. 

2. The law and order argument that is often use: &quot;If you entered this county illegally then you have committed a crime and thus you are a criminal,&quot; is hypocritical.  The Federal government has looked the other way for years as corporate farms enticed desperate people to enter the country illegally and employ them illegally.  It is not by accident that we have some of the cheapest food prices in the world.  

Now, after 9-11 and after a crashed economy, we are suddenly worried about law and order and about protecting American jobs.  Are we going after those who  enticed a desperate population of the poorest among us to enter this county illegally as vigilantly? Are we throwing the &quot;criminal&quot; label at them just as arbitrarily?  Go look at the fields in Yuma, go look at our jail population, and the answer is obvious.  

And our jails are not disproportionately populated by Hispanics because Hispanics commit more crimes but because they are punished more punitively.  I saw it over and over again with my own cases: Kid from rich farming family gets third DUI - charge reduced to a 1st time DUI; poor Hispanic or Native American kid with the same charge - 2 years with the DOC.  

Plus, everyone who speeds is technically a criminal; in fact, you have a better chance being killed by a speeder than you do any undocumented immigrant; yet, somehow, this law is not enforced seriously. The fact that all of the speed cameras were taken out of Phoenix even those traffic accident were significantly reduced is a pretty good indication that we are all pretty fickle about violations of certain laws qualifying someone as a criminal and others as not, and that fickle criteria is not based on public safety.  

3. The violent criminal element that is violating the border is using undocumented immigrants as camouflage for their illegal activity.  The most logical step is not to spend manpower locking up otherwise peaceful people, but to take away the camouflage, to allow otherwise peaceful undocumented people to openly be part of society in an orderly and fair manner so that law enforcement can truly tell the good guys from the bad guys.  

Anyway, my 2 cents.  God&#039;s peace.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this comment comes long are you post, but I just now ran across it and I wish to bring up a couple of points. </p>
<p>I worked in law enforcement for DPS, on the border, for seven years before going to seminary.  I also am a third generation Arizonan and grew up in Yuma.  The anarchy of our southern border is indeed a severe threat to those on both sides.  My problem is with SB1070, however, is three fold: </p>
<p>1. I can tell you by absolute experience that law enforcement does not have the manpower to enforce these laws as written.  With DPS, when I would run across an undocumented immigrant, Border Patrol was often an hour away or more.  If local law enforcement now has to arrest and detail every undocumented immigrant, then be prepared to fund many more law enforcement officers. </p>
<p>2. The law and order argument that is often use: &#8220;If you entered this county illegally then you have committed a crime and thus you are a criminal,&#8221; is hypocritical.  The Federal government has looked the other way for years as corporate farms enticed desperate people to enter the country illegally and employ them illegally.  It is not by accident that we have some of the cheapest food prices in the world.  </p>
<p>Now, after 9-11 and after a crashed economy, we are suddenly worried about law and order and about protecting American jobs.  Are we going after those who  enticed a desperate population of the poorest among us to enter this county illegally as vigilantly? Are we throwing the &#8220;criminal&#8221; label at them just as arbitrarily?  Go look at the fields in Yuma, go look at our jail population, and the answer is obvious.  </p>
<p>And our jails are not disproportionately populated by Hispanics because Hispanics commit more crimes but because they are punished more punitively.  I saw it over and over again with my own cases: Kid from rich farming family gets third DUI &#8211; charge reduced to a 1st time DUI; poor Hispanic or Native American kid with the same charge &#8211; 2 years with the DOC.  </p>
<p>Plus, everyone who speeds is technically a criminal; in fact, you have a better chance being killed by a speeder than you do any undocumented immigrant; yet, somehow, this law is not enforced seriously. The fact that all of the speed cameras were taken out of Phoenix even those traffic accident were significantly reduced is a pretty good indication that we are all pretty fickle about violations of certain laws qualifying someone as a criminal and others as not, and that fickle criteria is not based on public safety.  </p>
<p>3. The violent criminal element that is violating the border is using undocumented immigrants as camouflage for their illegal activity.  The most logical step is not to spend manpower locking up otherwise peaceful people, but to take away the camouflage, to allow otherwise peaceful undocumented people to openly be part of society in an orderly and fair manner so that law enforcement can truly tell the good guys from the bad guys.  </p>
<p>Anyway, my 2 cents.  God&#8217;s peace.</p>
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		<title>By: Josefa</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-1043</link>
		<dc:creator>Josefa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Jan 2011 21:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-1043</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My great grandmother was a native of Mexico and all of her
children were born in Arizona. As a descendent, I have no fear of
Arizona&#039;s new law. I am proud to prove I am a citizen. The criminal
aliens are the ones I fear. I gratefully submit to the
democratically enacted laws of our duly elected representatives in
Arizona. God bless the governor. You, sir, should consider
admonishing the Mexican government to show as much respect for her
citizens as Arizona does for hers. Have some compassion for the
victims of the criminal aliens who have been raped, murdered and
robbed. We all welcome legal immigrants, not criminal aliens. Stop
slandering the governor. Shame on you. Plenty of honest legal
immigrants are the ones who are also victimized by criminal aliens.
How about some compassion on them? As an LCMS member, I am
embarrassed by your dishonesty in discussing this issue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My great grandmother was a native of Mexico and all of her<br />
children were born in Arizona. As a descendent, I have no fear of<br />
Arizona&#8217;s new law. I am proud to prove I am a citizen. The criminal<br />
aliens are the ones I fear. I gratefully submit to the<br />
democratically enacted laws of our duly elected representatives in<br />
Arizona. God bless the governor. You, sir, should consider<br />
admonishing the Mexican government to show as much respect for her<br />
citizens as Arizona does for hers. Have some compassion for the<br />
victims of the criminal aliens who have been raped, murdered and<br />
robbed. We all welcome legal immigrants, not criminal aliens. Stop<br />
slandering the governor. Shame on you. Plenty of honest legal<br />
immigrants are the ones who are also victimized by criminal aliens.<br />
How about some compassion on them? As an LCMS member, I am<br />
embarrassed by your dishonesty in discussing this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Raabe</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-370</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Raabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 03:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A great discussion.  Some more thoughts.

Say you are a Lutheran pastor in Arizona of a Lutheran church with a Lutheran school.  What ought to be the official policy of church and school?

I would like to hear from lawyers and law enforcement officers as to what exactly is legal or illegal for a church and church-school, according to current Arizona law.

My hunch is something like this.

1) You may preach the gospel and educate all immigrants and their children.
2) You may incorporate them into the life of your church and school.
3) You may not shelter them from the law enforcement authorities.
4) You may not give them employment at the church or school. (Is this true?)
5) You may help them gain legal citizenship.
6) You may give them food, clothing, and shelter.
7) The church/church-school is not required to investigate the legal status of immigrants or to report illegal immigrants to the state authorities.  The church is not expected to carry out the government&#039;s job.
8) You may make good Lutherans of all immigrants, and part of being a good Lutheran is for them to obey the laws of the land as well.
9) You may assist Lutheran churches south of the border to reach out and care for the people in their area so that their men can find paid work to support their families.

In short, my hunch is that there is a whole lot that LCMS churches and schools could legally do in this situation.

A couple more thoughts.

When the Apostle Paul says in Romans 13 to obey the government, not all of the Roman laws at the time were so great.  Paul is not saying to obey only the civilly righteous laws of the land.

As citizens in the U.S. Lutherans are free to work for improving the laws of the land.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A great discussion.  Some more thoughts.</p>
<p>Say you are a Lutheran pastor in Arizona of a Lutheran church with a Lutheran school.  What ought to be the official policy of church and school?</p>
<p>I would like to hear from lawyers and law enforcement officers as to what exactly is legal or illegal for a church and church-school, according to current Arizona law.</p>
<p>My hunch is something like this.</p>
<p>1) You may preach the gospel and educate all immigrants and their children.<br />
2) You may incorporate them into the life of your church and school.<br />
3) You may not shelter them from the law enforcement authorities.<br />
4) You may not give them employment at the church or school. (Is this true?)<br />
5) You may help them gain legal citizenship.<br />
6) You may give them food, clothing, and shelter.<br />
7) The church/church-school is not required to investigate the legal status of immigrants or to report illegal immigrants to the state authorities.  The church is not expected to carry out the government&#8217;s job.<br />
8) You may make good Lutherans of all immigrants, and part of being a good Lutheran is for them to obey the laws of the land as well.<br />
9) You may assist Lutheran churches south of the border to reach out and care for the people in their area so that their men can find paid work to support their families.</p>
<p>In short, my hunch is that there is a whole lot that LCMS churches and schools could legally do in this situation.</p>
<p>A couple more thoughts.</p>
<p>When the Apostle Paul says in Romans 13 to obey the government, not all of the Roman laws at the time were so great.  Paul is not saying to obey only the civilly righteous laws of the land.</p>
<p>As citizens in the U.S. Lutherans are free to work for improving the laws of the land.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Dill</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-201</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Dill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Professor -

Nothing in the law says don&#039;t love or give care to the illegal.  It simply says that one who is here illegally is to be sent back to his or her country.  You may note that during the confinement and transport process, they are fed and given a place to sleep and, generally, are treated with respect.

It would be wonderful for all of those who are offended by this law, which is merely a law that allows AZ law-enforcement officials to enforce a long-standing Federal law, would find out where these people live in Mexico and provide assistance for them there.  After all, Mexico IS our neighbor and we who are followers of Christ are told to provide care to the extent we are able.

What is so strange is that Hispanic people who are citizens of this state are every bit as excellent as those of other racial origins - many of whom have lost track of all their mixed ancestry - and one would think that they would be in the forefront of the effort to encourage those here illegally to leave.  If I were Irish and closely affiliated with the Irish-American citizens, I would want to find those Irish who were here illegally and get them to leave - because their presence would be casting a very dark shadow on the &quot;name&quot; of Irish-Americans. 

But, in this era that celebrates our &quot;rights&quot; rather than duties and self-sacrifice and that encourages the lost to discover that they are victims and to identify and rail against those who are persecuting them, this hubub will not likely end.  

So for those of us who follow Christ, it is a time to hold up His light and realize that God is well aware of what is happening.  And light does seem to shine more brightly as the darkness gathers.

Blessings to you in Christ,

Mike]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Professor -</p>
<p>Nothing in the law says don&#8217;t love or give care to the illegal.  It simply says that one who is here illegally is to be sent back to his or her country.  You may note that during the confinement and transport process, they are fed and given a place to sleep and, generally, are treated with respect.</p>
<p>It would be wonderful for all of those who are offended by this law, which is merely a law that allows AZ law-enforcement officials to enforce a long-standing Federal law, would find out where these people live in Mexico and provide assistance for them there.  After all, Mexico IS our neighbor and we who are followers of Christ are told to provide care to the extent we are able.</p>
<p>What is so strange is that Hispanic people who are citizens of this state are every bit as excellent as those of other racial origins &#8211; many of whom have lost track of all their mixed ancestry &#8211; and one would think that they would be in the forefront of the effort to encourage those here illegally to leave.  If I were Irish and closely affiliated with the Irish-American citizens, I would want to find those Irish who were here illegally and get them to leave &#8211; because their presence would be casting a very dark shadow on the &#8220;name&#8221; of Irish-Americans. </p>
<p>But, in this era that celebrates our &#8220;rights&#8221; rather than duties and self-sacrifice and that encourages the lost to discover that they are victims and to identify and rail against those who are persecuting them, this hubub will not likely end.  </p>
<p>So for those of us who follow Christ, it is a time to hold up His light and realize that God is well aware of what is happening.  And light does seem to shine more brightly as the darkness gathers.</p>
<p>Blessings to you in Christ,</p>
<p>Mike</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-176</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2010 22:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-176</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When considering immigration as a theological problem, it might be appropriate to refer to the Two Realms (Kingdoms)- spiritual and political. When dealing in the political realm, framing the question in the form of an ethical dilemma facilitates discussion and keeps us from blurring the line between Kingdoms. As I read through the Blog along with the original article, I think that is what you are doing, but am not sure.

You seem to pose two questions. First, how should we treat our neighbor? Second, what role does our vocation plays when deciding how to treat our neighbor? Perhaps an ethical framework for the discussion might apply. For example, Practical Imperatives were developed from Kant’s Categorical Imperatives to counter Utilitarianism. Utilitarianism has been accused of justifying exploitation of people already disadvantaged. If a program increases the misery of the disadvantaged but promotes the total social good, then utilitarianism might have to support such a program. The matching Practical Imperative is: always act so as to treat rational nature (i.e., other human beings) as an end, never as a means only. 

Our Lutheran Confessions says, “While the Table of Duties must be proclaimed to all Christians, governments and states as such are accountable to God not through the church but through all who have standing under Rom. 13:1-7, and by way of natural reason and law.” (http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/WRHC/134_The%20Two%20Realms%20in%20the%20Lutheran%20Confessions.PDF)

Since Governor Brewer signed Arizona’s immigration law into effect, her approval ratings soared implying that most Arizona constituents agree with the law and the Governor’s actions. Arizona demonstrated a basic principle of the US Constitution; that is States are free to self govern, free to create and enforce their own laws. Such freedoms are exactly what so many of our military fought and died to defend.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When considering immigration as a theological problem, it might be appropriate to refer to the Two Realms (Kingdoms)- spiritual and political. When dealing in the political realm, framing the question in the form of an ethical dilemma facilitates discussion and keeps us from blurring the line between Kingdoms. As I read through the Blog along with the original article, I think that is what you are doing, but am not sure.</p>
<p>You seem to pose two questions. First, how should we treat our neighbor? Second, what role does our vocation plays when deciding how to treat our neighbor? Perhaps an ethical framework for the discussion might apply. For example, Practical Imperatives were developed from Kant’s Categorical Imperatives to counter Utilitarianism. Utilitarianism has been accused of justifying exploitation of people already disadvantaged. If a program increases the misery of the disadvantaged but promotes the total social good, then utilitarianism might have to support such a program. The matching Practical Imperative is: always act so as to treat rational nature (i.e., other human beings) as an end, never as a means only. </p>
<p>Our Lutheran Confessions says, “While the Table of Duties must be proclaimed to all Christians, governments and states as such are accountable to God not through the church but through all who have standing under Rom. 13:1-7, and by way of natural reason and law.” (<a href="http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/WRHC/134_The%20Two%20Realms%20in%20the%20Lutheran%20Confessions.PDF" rel="nofollow">http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/WRHC/134_The%20Two%20Realms%20in%20the%20Lutheran%20Confessions.PDF</a>)</p>
<p>Since Governor Brewer signed Arizona’s immigration law into effect, her approval ratings soared implying that most Arizona constituents agree with the law and the Governor’s actions. Arizona demonstrated a basic principle of the US Constitution; that is States are free to self govern, free to create and enforce their own laws. Such freedoms are exactly what so many of our military fought and died to defend.</p>
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		<title>By: Eloy González</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2010/05/arizona-neighbor-on-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-174</link>
		<dc:creator>Eloy González</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2010 00:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=1612#comment-174</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Dr. Sánchez,

Thank you for the response - very helpful. You helped me much by clarifying that neighbor language includes even &quot;love for our enemies&quot;! The bar is set mighty high. Thanks be to God for the Cross.

Paz,
eloy]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Dr. Sánchez,</p>
<p>Thank you for the response &#8211; very helpful. You helped me much by clarifying that neighbor language includes even &#8220;love for our enemies&#8221;! The bar is set mighty high. Thanks be to God for the Cross.</p>
<p>Paz,<br />
eloy</p>
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