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	<title>Comments on: A &#8220;Church&#8221; that Never Saw &#8220;Christmas&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/</link>
	<description>Concordia Theology</description>
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		<title>By: David Oberdieck</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2377</link>
		<dc:creator>David Oberdieck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:30:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On my comment above, since John is referring back to creation (Gen 1) could he be reading the Trinity into Genesis.  So that God the Father is creating thru the spoken Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (3d person)is hovering over the waters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On my comment above, since John is referring back to creation (Gen 1) could he be reading the Trinity into Genesis.  So that God the Father is creating thru the spoken Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (3d person)is hovering over the waters.</p>
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		<title>By: David Oberdieck</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2376</link>
		<dc:creator>David Oberdieck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 05:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2376</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since John 1:1-14 is the Christmas Day reading can I stretch this post with a question about John 1:1-2?

Does John begin His Gospel in the name of the Trinity?  &quot;The Word was with God&quot; (Father);  &quot;The Word was God&quot; (Jesus the same substance of the Father); &quot;He was in the beginning with God (is this the Holy Spirit or just another reference to the Father?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since John 1:1-14 is the Christmas Day reading can I stretch this post with a question about John 1:1-2?</p>
<p>Does John begin His Gospel in the name of the Trinity?  &#8220;The Word was with God&#8221; (Father);  &#8220;The Word was God&#8221; (Jesus the same substance of the Father); &#8220;He was in the beginning with God (is this the Holy Spirit or just another reference to the Father?)</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2374</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 01:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2374</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I was in Nagel&#039;s class when I heard that the Annunciation pre-dated Christmas celebrations.

Here are some web clips.

When the calendar system of Anno Domini was first introduced by Dionysius Exiguus in AD 525, he assigned the beginning of the new year to March 25, since according to Christian theology, the era of grace began with the Incarnation of Christ.

Scholars are not completely sure whether the date of the Annunciation influenced the date of Christmas, or vice-versa. Before the Church adopted fixed days of celebration, early Christians speculated on the dates of major events in Jesus&#039; life. Second-century Latin Christians in Rome and North Africa tried to find the day in which Jesus died. By the time of Tertullian (d. AD 225) they had concluded that he died on Friday, March 25, AD 29 (incidentally, this is an impossibility, since March 25 in the year AD 29 was not a Friday). How does the day of Jesus&#039; death relate to the day of his conception? It comes from the Jewish concept of the &quot;integral age&quot; of the great Jewish prophets. This is the notion that the prophets of Israel died on the same dates as their birth or conception. Therefore, if Jesus died on March 25, he was also conceived that day.

St. Ephraim the Syrian taught that the date of the conception of Jesus Christ fell on 10 Nisan on the Hebrew Calendar, the day in which the passover lamb was selected according to Exodus 12. Some years 10 Nisan falls on March 25, which is the tradition date for the Feast of the Annunciation.

Anyhow the date for the Annunciation was set before there was a German Lutheran church.

By the Way it only snows about once a year in London and then only a trace.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I was in Nagel&#8217;s class when I heard that the Annunciation pre-dated Christmas celebrations.</p>
<p>Here are some web clips.</p>
<p>When the calendar system of Anno Domini was first introduced by Dionysius Exiguus in AD 525, he assigned the beginning of the new year to March 25, since according to Christian theology, the era of grace began with the Incarnation of Christ.</p>
<p>Scholars are not completely sure whether the date of the Annunciation influenced the date of Christmas, or vice-versa. Before the Church adopted fixed days of celebration, early Christians speculated on the dates of major events in Jesus&#8217; life. Second-century Latin Christians in Rome and North Africa tried to find the day in which Jesus died. By the time of Tertullian (d. AD 225) they had concluded that he died on Friday, March 25, AD 29 (incidentally, this is an impossibility, since March 25 in the year AD 29 was not a Friday). How does the day of Jesus&#8217; death relate to the day of his conception? It comes from the Jewish concept of the &#8220;integral age&#8221; of the great Jewish prophets. This is the notion that the prophets of Israel died on the same dates as their birth or conception. Therefore, if Jesus died on March 25, he was also conceived that day.</p>
<p>St. Ephraim the Syrian taught that the date of the conception of Jesus Christ fell on 10 Nisan on the Hebrew Calendar, the day in which the passover lamb was selected according to Exodus 12. Some years 10 Nisan falls on March 25, which is the tradition date for the Feast of the Annunciation.</p>
<p>Anyhow the date for the Annunciation was set before there was a German Lutheran church.</p>
<p>By the Way it only snows about once a year in London and then only a trace.</p>
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		<title>By: David Oberdieck</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2372</link>
		<dc:creator>David Oberdieck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 21:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff -- yes this is a salutary exhortation.  How easily we can have the details of the nativity askew by popular images.  This will be even more true among many who know the story via t.v. and movies.

It points out the importance all the more of getting to the heart of Christmas in the incarnation.

By the way -- off point -- years ago I made a call on a visitor to my vicarage church.  She had a very large white Bible on the coffee table.  I asked if she ever read it.  Her response was without hesitation and very sincere - I don&#039;t need to read it because I watch the movies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff &#8212; yes this is a salutary exhortation.  How easily we can have the details of the nativity askew by popular images.  This will be even more true among many who know the story via t.v. and movies.</p>
<p>It points out the importance all the more of getting to the heart of Christmas in the incarnation.</p>
<p>By the way &#8212; off point &#8212; years ago I made a call on a visitor to my vicarage church.  She had a very large white Bible on the coffee table.  I asked if she ever read it.  Her response was without hesitation and very sincere &#8211; I don&#8217;t need to read it because I watch the movies.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kloha</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2370</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kloha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 19:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the conversation everyone, guess there was a whole lot more interest in this than I thought there&#039;d be. I&#039;ll take one more run at this, and then let you all get on to celebrate your Christmas. Nothing here advocates &quot;nude historicism,&quot; what I&#039;m trying to encourage is some reflection on the layers that we (the church) have piled on -- all with good intentions, all with the goal of helping teach the incarnation -- and to ask whether we are able to hear the actual gospel texts on Christmas any longer. At what point are we celebrating something other than what the Apostle&#039;s taught?

Donkeys and oxen are natural guesses if you are depicting a manger scene. The earliest representation appears to be a fourth-century sarcophagus now in Milan (see Elliott and Cartlidge, Art and the Christian Apocrypha, 17-18). All is fair game homiletically, I guess, but the gospels clearly teach Christ&#039;s mastery over and harmony with creation in other places (calming of the storm, for example). That is not, however, a point that either Matthew or Luke makes in the birth narratives. Again, let&#039;s read the text, and let the word shape our life. 

As to the specific day of Jesus&#039; birth, the springtime dating is pretty standard. I don&#039;t know the origins of the Annunciation dating, but it looks rather like someone calculated back from Dec 25, not the other way around. No reason to celebrate an annunciation if you&#039;re not celebrating a birth. And, on the annunciation also, take a look at the Elliott/Cartlidge book for the development of the imagery of that event in later Christian literature and art.

The artwork from Dura-Europos has been at Yale since the 1930s, should be there for a long time yet, so no hurries. Safe travels.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the conversation everyone, guess there was a whole lot more interest in this than I thought there&#8217;d be. I&#8217;ll take one more run at this, and then let you all get on to celebrate your Christmas. Nothing here advocates &#8220;nude historicism,&#8221; what I&#8217;m trying to encourage is some reflection on the layers that we (the church) have piled on &#8212; all with good intentions, all with the goal of helping teach the incarnation &#8212; and to ask whether we are able to hear the actual gospel texts on Christmas any longer. At what point are we celebrating something other than what the Apostle&#8217;s taught?</p>
<p>Donkeys and oxen are natural guesses if you are depicting a manger scene. The earliest representation appears to be a fourth-century sarcophagus now in Milan (see Elliott and Cartlidge, Art and the Christian Apocrypha, 17-18). All is fair game homiletically, I guess, but the gospels clearly teach Christ&#8217;s mastery over and harmony with creation in other places (calming of the storm, for example). That is not, however, a point that either Matthew or Luke makes in the birth narratives. Again, let&#8217;s read the text, and let the word shape our life. </p>
<p>As to the specific day of Jesus&#8217; birth, the springtime dating is pretty standard. I don&#8217;t know the origins of the Annunciation dating, but it looks rather like someone calculated back from Dec 25, not the other way around. No reason to celebrate an annunciation if you&#8217;re not celebrating a birth. And, on the annunciation also, take a look at the Elliott/Cartlidge book for the development of the imagery of that event in later Christian literature and art.</p>
<p>The artwork from Dura-Europos has been at Yale since the 1930s, should be there for a long time yet, so no hurries. Safe travels.</p>
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		<title>By: David Oberdieck</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2369</link>
		<dc:creator>David Oberdieck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 19:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Don Stults --- do you know how far back the celebration of the annunciation goes?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don Stults &#8212; do you know how far back the celebration of the annunciation goes?</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Boerger</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2367</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Boerger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2367</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for these reflections--and for bringing attention to the Dura-Europos exhibit (I look forward to checking it our once it returns to Yale).

This is kind of a minor point, but I want to say a word in defense of the ox and ass.  I wouldn&#039;t call them fictitious so much as homiletical.  They may not occur in the Gospels, but they are certainly biblical.  The original source for this pair is not Pseudo-Matthew, but (as Pseudo-Matthew cites) Isaiah 1:3 (&quot;The ox knows its owner and the donkey its master&#039;s crib, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand&quot;).  The association between Isaiah 1:3 and the Nativity significantly predates Pseudo-Matthew.  Augustine and Gregory Nazianzen both make the connection in their Christmas preaching.  And I seem to recall that the ox and the ass also occur in the earliest (fourth century?) artistic representations of the Nativity. The presence of these animals at the manger is a shorthand for prophetic fulfillment, as well as a Christological confession: the donkey knows &quot;την ϕατνην του κυριου&quot; (LXX). All of this is indicative of a reading of scripture that, if not strictly historical, is richly intertextual and profoundly theological . . . and, I would argue, ultimately truer than the reading produced by a nude historicism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for these reflections&#8211;and for bringing attention to the Dura-Europos exhibit (I look forward to checking it our once it returns to Yale).</p>
<p>This is kind of a minor point, but I want to say a word in defense of the ox and ass.  I wouldn&#8217;t call them fictitious so much as homiletical.  They may not occur in the Gospels, but they are certainly biblical.  The original source for this pair is not Pseudo-Matthew, but (as Pseudo-Matthew cites) Isaiah 1:3 (&#8220;The ox knows its owner and the donkey its master&#8217;s crib, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand&#8221;).  The association between Isaiah 1:3 and the Nativity significantly predates Pseudo-Matthew.  Augustine and Gregory Nazianzen both make the connection in their Christmas preaching.  And I seem to recall that the ox and the ass also occur in the earliest (fourth century?) artistic representations of the Nativity. The presence of these animals at the manger is a shorthand for prophetic fulfillment, as well as a Christological confession: the donkey knows &#8220;την ϕατνην του κυριου&#8221; (LXX). All of this is indicative of a reading of scripture that, if not strictly historical, is richly intertextual and profoundly theological . . . and, I would argue, ultimately truer than the reading produced by a nude historicism.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Eggold</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2364</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Eggold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 02:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My sermons are, in fact, done! I spent the day making shut-in visits. The topic of the relationship bewtween the incarnation and eschatological restoration was very appropriate. Merry Christmas, Dr. Kloha. I look forward to your posts in the New Year.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My sermons are, in fact, done! I spent the day making shut-in visits. The topic of the relationship bewtween the incarnation and eschatological restoration was very appropriate. Merry Christmas, Dr. Kloha. I look forward to your posts in the New Year.</p>
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		<title>By: Gifts &#171; Regeneration Summit</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2363</link>
		<dc:creator>Gifts &#171; Regeneration Summit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] that often come along with the season in North America (For good discussion and comments click here.)  Some of us are struggling with the cliches, or lamenting how &#8220;busy&#8221; we are. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that often come along with the season in North America (For good discussion and comments click here.)  Some of us are struggling with the cliches, or lamenting how &#8220;busy&#8221; we are. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Don Stults</title>
		<link>http://concordiatheology.org/2011/12/a-church-that-never-saw-christmas/comment-page-1/#comment-2362</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Stults</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 20:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://concordiatheology.org/?p=5470#comment-2362</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I want to take issue with assuming that only time the shepherds are going to watch their flock at night is during the spring.  During lambing season they want to keep the flock as close to home as possible and they probably won&#039;t run off even with an angelic message.  The shepherds I know are watching their flocks in the bleak mid winter because the coyotes don&#039;t have much else to eat and the sheep are weighed down with wool.

I have been teaching my people that the date of the Annunciation pre-dates the northern Germanic tribes.  December 25 is nine months later.

While I too struggle to bring the full weight of the law to our celebrations I am not sure the corporate greed is the best target to set up the Christmas Gospel.  If the Good News is that God has become man the bad news should be along the lines that man is not that good at being man.  What does that mean?  How can the excited child hear that man is sinful?  I don&#039;t think we should give up on the children in this season but take them in our arms and bless them.  Put flesh on your Christmas Gospel and enjoy it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to take issue with assuming that only time the shepherds are going to watch their flock at night is during the spring.  During lambing season they want to keep the flock as close to home as possible and they probably won&#8217;t run off even with an angelic message.  The shepherds I know are watching their flocks in the bleak mid winter because the coyotes don&#8217;t have much else to eat and the sheep are weighed down with wool.</p>
<p>I have been teaching my people that the date of the Annunciation pre-dates the northern Germanic tribes.  December 25 is nine months later.</p>
<p>While I too struggle to bring the full weight of the law to our celebrations I am not sure the corporate greed is the best target to set up the Christmas Gospel.  If the Good News is that God has become man the bad news should be along the lines that man is not that good at being man.  What does that mean?  How can the excited child hear that man is sinful?  I don&#8217;t think we should give up on the children in this season but take them in our arms and bless them.  Put flesh on your Christmas Gospel and enjoy it.</p>
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